Professor David Peimer
Contemporary Israeli TV: “Fauda” the Series
Professor David Peimer - Contemporary Israeli TV: Fauda the Series
- So we’re going to dive straight into having a look at this fascinating Israeli TV series, “Fauda”, which I think is one of the most important TV series made in the last nine, 10 years, and made over the period, of course, you know, it’s had quite a few seasons of showings. And the response, obviously in Israel first of all, most importantly, and the response in the Arab world and the response in America and globally through Netflix, which is quite fascinating to see. It’s a fascinating why, to imagine why and how it has become so well received, won so many awards, why it has become so popular with such diverse type of audience response. I do have to say something at the beginning, which I think is really important and for me to be direct about. These series were done between 2015 and 2023, and I’m going to show some clips from some of the series today and some interviews with the two main co-creators and the one who’s the main actor. I do want to say that post-October 7th, it becomes complicated, to put it mildly, tricky to put it honestly, even risky to talk about “Fauda” or to show it. But I feel it is such an important part of Jewish and Israeli cultural history, and it continues to be, and I think in the interest of educational honesty and the interest of educational discussion, it’s really important to look at it and see what it was, what it achieved, how they, the creators have imagined it going further, going forward post-October 7th and the horrific nightmare of that massacre, which they’re obviously totally aware of and we’ll be coming, will obviously, you know, incorporate that awareness in future series. I say that because it’s in the educational context.
Obviously, I have my own personal bias one way or the other, but in an educational context, I think it’s just so important to look at and understand without getting caught up in saying, well, you know, the one is all evil, the other one’s all good, you know, sort of purely goodies and baddies. I think also that I’m very tempted to say there are mere goodies and baddies and that’s it, that’s the end of the story. There are no goodies on the other side, as it were, but I think that it’s important to look at this series, see what their aim was, what they tried, what was so different and radical for their time, and continues to be such an extraordinary challenge you know, in how and why they make it. It’s also a testament to Israeli democracy. It’s a testament to Israeli freedom of speech, to openness that these, you know, are being made, being financed, acted in and shown. So I think in that spirit it becomes really important. It is at the same time very hard to analyse it with an educational and let’s say intellectual point of view as opposed to a primarily emotional point of view, which would be very different in me. And I have to maintain that professional intellectual curiosity, if you like, and scholarly way of thinking when looking at the series and discussing it post-October 7th. So I want to say that in the beginning, because it can appear if as one watches it, it can seem a little tricky. So I share that with everybody because for me it is such a groundbreaking and important TV series. As I said, once again, it is so fundamental to showing Israeli democracy. It is so fundamental in trying to show two sides of the same terrible story. And in trying to show something through the writing and the experience, the acting and the performing of the actors and the creators in “Fauda”, trying to show something of let’s call it the gritty reality of life today in Israel.
Post-October 7th, it’s much harder to discuss it from an educational point of view and an intellectual point of view, but I’m going to try and maintain that approach today because that is the foundation of everything we do on this remarkable series of “Lockdown,” you know, that Wendy has created together with Trudy. So, I just want to say that very honestly upfront. It questions, “Fauda” questions what is a hero? What is it to see the other in the terms of the binary of self and other, what is it to be, what is it to see pro-Israeli, you know, and anti-Israeli? What is it to see these things through the eyes of “Fauda” today, post-October 7th and pre-October the 7th, from the eyes of the creators, of the Israeli creators? And I think it does, you know, the word groundbreaking is so well worn and well used, but I really believe it is, and because of it, not by chance that it’s so popular in Israel, Arab countries around, and of course, you know, America and globally elsewhere, obviously through distribution network of and financing of Netflix. So “Fauda” was based on the what was originally the Israeli series called “Prisoners of War”, which was about hostages. Again, all these words I know are so, and rightly so and morally so, so emotionally invested in our times now, post-October 7th. So I ask everybody if we can look at these words from an educational perspective as well. The hostages, “Prisoner of War” was based on hostages held by Al-Qaeda and then is “turned” by the enemy, which became the very well-known series “Homeland”. It was adapted to the American version of “Homeland”, as I’m sure many people know of, Claire Danes and other, Damian Lewis and other actors in it.
The other thing I have to say, so it comes out of that context of “Prisoners of War”, the Israeli series, which then became “Homeland”, and you know, where that went to. It comes out the context of making documentaries and TV, sorry, TV fictional pieces out of, coming out of real-life events that have happened historically and that are real, and that was about “Homeland”, as we all know, was the individual turned or not by Al-Qaeda? And it, you know, it was adapted to that situation from Israeli TV. The other thing that’s just, you know, really important is that the co-creators, who I have enormous respect for, they also stress that we must never forget this is a fictional TV series. This is not going as a documentary, it’s not going as you know, a literal slice of life as it were. It’s taking from life, which all great art does, crystallises it in time and space, and presents us a vision to help interpret and enrich and deepen our understanding of something in life and the events which may have, in this case of course, historical and contemporary contexts. So that’s really important as the co-creators say, that they are trying to create ultimately edutainment or entertaining TV, as well as something based on what they call the gritty realities of life now. You know, in the 2000s that we are all living in in Israel and surrounding areas. So these are two important points to make before any discussion. The co-creators briefly are Avi Issacharoff, who was born in Jerusalem, seventh generation Israeli, seventh generation. Most of the family lived in Jerusalem’s Bukharan Quarter. He attended Kurdish Jewish synagogues where he learned Arabic. The series is half in Arabic and half in Hebrew with subtitles in English, which is also a groundbreaking first.
I mean, quite extraordinary if you think about it. Half in Arabic and Arabic dialects, not only Arabic languages, and Hebrew dialects and Hebrew, you know, specifically, specific aspects of the language and the slang of both. And these guys grew up, the two co-creators grew up speaking Arabic, you know, the one seven generation. So Avi Issacharoff served in the IDF and he was in the Duvdevan unit. Now that’s a highly specialist, elite counter-terrorism unit, which is where he met Lior Raz, the co-creator. So the two creators come from one of the most specialist, well-trained, elitist counter-terrorism units in the IDF, which is important because it speaks to the authenticity that they are aiming for, and they have experienced some of the kinds of things that we see in “Fauda” the TV series. Avi went to Ben-Gurion University, then Tel Aviv University, he’s written two books. He’s a correspondent about Middle Eastern Affairs. First book was about the Second Intifada, and he won the 2005 prize from the Israeli Institute for National Security Studies. And 2008, he wrote a book about the 2006 Lebanon War, which also won a prestigious award in Israel. He’s also, in 2002, he won the Best Reporter Award from Israel Radio. So these guys are serious thinkers. They have serious military counter-terrorism experience on the front, as it were. He’s co-creator together with Lior Raz, co-creator of “Fauda”. The years you can see, which has won the latest in 2018. They won 11 awards by the Israeli Academy of Film and TV. So the Israeli Academy itself has rewarded this series with 11 awards. It’s almost unheard of, you know? And I think absolutely rightly so.
As he said, and I’m quoting, “We are not trying to change the world. We can’t. We can just try and get people talking to each other.” It sounds banal, it sounds maybe over simplistic, but I think as a simple truth, that’s what entertainment, edutainment, that’s what a series can try and do, just try and get people to talk to each other. You know, Churchill had the great phrase, jaw-jaw is always better than war-war if possible, you know? And I would relate it to, if they have an underlying hope, and it may be naive, it may be idealistic hope. Nevertheless, it’s hope. Lior Raz, he’s the main one in the picture you can see with the black shirt, the main guy in the centre. Now, he’s the co-creator and he’s the main actor. He plays Doron, who’s the leader of the commander of this counter-terrorism, the specialist counter-terrorism unit in the series, “Fauda”. And he’s an Israeli actor and screenwriter together with, they’re both the screenwriters. He’s born outside Jerusalem, about four, five miles outside Jerusalem in a small little town. His parents immigrated to Israel from Iraq and Algeria. So interesting contrast to his co-creator. His father was in Shayetet 13 and the Shin Bet. So his father has enormous experience in highly specialist counter-terrorism unit. And the Shin Bet everybody knows, internal Israeli security. And then his father retired from the Shin Bet and he ran a plant nursery, okay? I have to share this because it’s such human story, which I love. His mother is a teacher and they, and he grew up also speaking Arabic, as did his parents.
So both co-creators, fluent in Arabic, fluent in Hebrew, and they were in the same highly specialist commando counter-terrorism unit, the Duvdevan. Lior Raz you see in the picture here. He served in the counter, in this unit for 20 years. In 1990, a pivotal moment happens in his life. A Palestinian terrorist stabbed his girlfriend at the time to death in Jerusalem. The man who stabbed her was released from prison in 2011 as part of the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange. We all know 1,027 Palestinian terrorists and prisoners were released for the one Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, who’d been held prisoner of Hamas, as we all know, for five years, 1,027 for one soldier, the value of an Israeli life, of a Jewish life, absolutely crucial. So that’s part of his background, not only his family but his personal background with his girlfriend who’s killed, stabbed to death in front of him in Jerusalem, just in a bar together with, you know, the counter-terrorism and unit that they’re both served in. Interestingly, in 1993, Lior Raz went to America, worked for a private security company and he ended up being Arnold Schwarzenegger’s bodyguard, okay? For those who enjoy, you know, the private lives of some of these fascinating people. He then, he plays the commander, as I said, of this counter-terrorism unit. And basically it’s about the counter-terrorism unit, you know, hunting down the terrorists, Hamas primarily, in Gaza, a little bit the West Bank.
This is all obviously done before October 7th, all these series are made, and it’s done in both languages. What they show is they try to show the families of both. So they show the family of the terrorist leaders, the family of the Hamas people, the grandmother, the grandchildren, the weddings, the little children, the babies, the husbands, wives, the Hamas terrorists in a family context in the same ways as they do with the Israeli commandos. They show the families, the wives, the husbands, the children, the teenagers, the babies, you know? So we see, when you show the family of both sides, you start to humanise or personalise, and you move away from demonization, which was part of the aims of the two co-creators when they began the series in 2015. You humanise and personalise and you move away from binary demonise when you show family context, you know, down to a wedding, and you show the grandmother, the grandfather and the elderly great-grandparent, and you show this little children and just playing football or running, just doing things that any ordinary person would do. You take them out of the singular categorization of terrorist versus commando, and you show all this. Now that can be criticised, should that be shown or should it not be shown? That’s it, that’s a very important debate. Should it be shown or should no, no, no, we should just show the one aspect and not the surrounding aspects. These are just individuals who are hell-bent on mass murder and mass slaughter, and we should not show the other side at all.
And it’s an enormously provocative and powerful and crucial debate to be had. As I said, this series now has, it ended before October 7th. And as they go towards making their next series, which they are going to make, they’ve got the funding for it, they’re totally aware, of course, of the horrific massacre of October 7th, and what they, how they’re going to change the series as they go along. So I need to give all this as an important context. In 2017, “The New York Times” voted “Fauda” the best international show of the year. So 2017, this TV series is voted by “The New York Times” the best international TV series of the year. International, it’s competing against every TV series in the world. This is shown as the best, not just because it’s a kind of softy-softy, okay? We’re trying to show the good side of both cowboy and Indian, goodies and baddies, rights and wrongs and all that. But the gritty, cold, hard realism, that’s what’s extraordinary I think in the film. It’s not only slick editing and slick writing and brilliant acting and shooting and directing and so on and writing, but it’s gritty, it’s real. You feel this is authentic, to use the word, it’s coming from an authentic base. It’s not fantasy, it’s not pipe dream stuff which is terrifying and scary, but also is so important I think educationally to provoke us to think and debate all the questions I mentioned earlier.
The other thing about Lior Raz, just out of interest, in 2018, he acted in “Operation Finale” where he played Isser Harel, who we all know was the director of Mossad at the time of the Eichmann capture. And the movie is about the capture of Eichmann in Argentina. They’re both, the co-creators, both said that since October 7th, the script has been revised and revised for the next series again and again and again, and will be much tougher and more militaristic and less, as they called it, “less both-sided”. Totally aware, given their personal backgrounds, and of course the context that they’re operating in post-October. So it’ll show a departure, and as they say in their own words, I’m quoting them again, “It’s revamped since October 7th and it’ll have a darker tone.” And it’s harder, they acknowledge now it’s harder to show, and I’m quoting again, “The personal lives of the other side.” And it’s when we show the personal lives of the other side that we go into the murky terrain of do we personalise these ordinary people who become these slaughterers, these killers, these cold-blooded murderers and rapists of Hamas, when we show the personal lives, the family lives, the childhood and so on, do we show that or should we not show that, you know? And that’s part of what they are grappling with right now, which makes it so contemporary, gritty and in their words, “attempting to be authentic.” In an interview with the London Times, interestingly in October, now, this is post-October 7th. The co-creator said that they, because of course, by 2023, they had a script writing team.
They weren’t just writing it on their own, which they did in the beginning. And the team came up with the idea, believe it or not, before the October 7th horrific massacre, the team came up with the idea of a storyline which would show Hamas terrorists storming the border of Gaza and taking a kibbutz, controlling it and fighting off Israeli army soldiers. That was part of the storyline before October 7th. And the co-creators scoffed at it and they said, nonsense, we can’t do that, it’s not authentic. First of all, intelligence would pick it up. Secondly, there’d be a couple of choppers, aeroplanes . It’ll be dealt with within half an hour, an hour. It’s a ridiculous idea of, it’ll never happen. Terrifying truth came from fiction before its coming into the horrific reality. Okay, if we can show the next, this is the first clip I want to show, which is a video which tells us a bit more of what it’s about. We can show it, please, thanks, Jess.
[Narrator] Welcome to “Fauda”, a Netflix sensation where nothing is ever as it seems. “Fauda” means chaos in Arabic, but on TV it spells high octane thriller. The series follows an undercover Israeli counter-terrorism unit working in the West Bank. Season two drops May 24th, and already “Fauda” is being hailed as groundbreaking. The reason, it does something journalists have at times failed to do. It tells two sides of the same story.
The unique point of view of “Fauda” was that it actually showed also the Palestinian narrative, not only the Israeli one.
[Narrator] The show was created by two guys who know their stuff, Lior Raz, a former undercover operative in the Israeli military, and Avi Issacharoff, an Israeli journalist covering Palestinian affairs. Two years ago, Netflix acquired their show, and ever since, there’s been a groundswell of followers all over the world.
And it was very, very interesting how everybody embraced it. You could see huge articles in “The New Yorker” about it, and in “New York Times” chose it for one of the best TV series in the world.
[Narrator] Raz based the show on his own life in the elite Duvdevan unit of the Israeli army. But he also plays the lead character, a former undercover officer named Doron Kavillio, who comes out of retirement for one last mission to track and kill an notorious Hamas terrorist called the Panther. As if you needed another reason to binge watch anything consider this, “Fauda” is somehow beloved by both Israelis and Palestinians.
Avi Issacharoff is one of the writers of “Fauda”, and he said that so many people from Gaza and from the West Bank used to call him and told him that they were watching the show and that they were moved by it.
[Narrator] Reaction from the Arab world caught the producers by surprise, but perhaps they should have seen it coming.
[Narrator] From the beginning, the creators of “Fauda” paid attention to realistic details and vowed to tell their story in a way that no one has ever done before.
The name of the show is in Arabic. The ads were in Arabic. Most dialogues are in Arabic on Israeli prime TV.
You don’t hear Arabic in Israel anymore.
[Narrator] One of the show’s most heart-wrenching scenes is about a new bride whose husband was killed by undercover soldiers on their wedding day. She volunteers to be a martyr, but scared out of her wits, she heads to a Tel Aviv bar and orders a drink. Sensing she’s upset, the bartender asks her if she’s okay. That quick interaction changes everything. The widow, who’d been ordered to leave the bomb in the club and exit to a waiting car, makes another move instead. She decides to die alongside everyone around her and blows herself up. It was like, what’s going on here? This is kind of interesting. They’re not all wonderful. They’re not all evil.
[Narrator] Maz Siam is a Palestinian actor in Los Angeles. He said he was surprised that he sympathised with the lead Israeli character, an operative who discovers his wife has been cheating.
I felt a little bad for him. I felt bad for the Israeli characters.
It is very important for people to understand what’s going on in the other side, and I think that was a success.
[Narrator] Perhaps a very big success despite a very small screen.
[Narrator] Itay Hod, “TheWrap”, Hollywood.
Thanks. If we can show the next clip, please. The next one is an interview with Lior Raz, the main, the co-creator, the main actor.
Hi, I’m Lior Raz and I’m here with “Fox 411”.
Oh, it’s a long story, but actually I met, I used to be in the Special Forces in Israel when I was younger, and I met a good friend of mine, Avi Issacharoff, who we know each other from Jerusalem when we were very young and we met in a special event in the West Bank. I can’t say why and how and where, but, and then I met him and he asked me a very important question. He asked me if I have a dream. We were just sitting together and I said, “Yes, I have a dream. I want to write something about the Special Forces, about undercover units, about their, the price, the mental price that they are paying.” And also I wanted to talk about the Palestinians ‘cause in Israel, nobody talks about the Palestinians in the culture scene, in the Israeli culture scene unless you’re a Palestinian. And Avi said that he had the same dream for a long time. And he said that why we wouldn’t write something? And I said, “Okay, let’s do that.” And we started to write for the first time in our life, because we never wrote anything. And you know, scripts, Avi is a journalist, but I never wrote anything. And that’s it. This is how we started to think about it and write about it. But it’s a lot of the things that you see there, it’s based on our experience in life. I didn’t expect anything, actually. I thought that nobody will see the show. I thought just me and my mother and Avi’s mother and father, that’s it.
But I know now this is the most viewed show in the Arab population in Israel, because few things, first of all, we honour their language. We honour their narrative, and we respect them and we portrayed the characters not just like a flat characters, just the bad guys as you see in so many TV shows and movies all over the world. When you see the bad guy, he’s just a bad guy, that he don’t have wives, he don’t have kids. He’s not in love with someone. And now, and for them, it was for the first time that you see a terrorist with real life. And this is why I think they love the show. And sometimes I’m getting a lot of emails from Arab countries, people who see the show in Arab countries now, and also Palestinians as well. And they’re saying that this is the first time when they see the show that they feel compassion to the Israeli side, but the opposite as well. I see right-wings Israelis who’s telling me this is the first time that they feel compassion for the Palestinian side. In the beginning we were very, it was frightening, you know? We didn’t know what to accept, expect. And first of all, I think we cancelled the first day of shooting because we were afraid. We didn’t know what to do because it’s an Arab village inside Israel. There is, you know, missiles going down, coming down at us. So we didn’t know what to do. And, but then we talked with the mayor of Kfar Kassem and he said “Come on, come, everything would be okay.” And actually this outside Kfar Kassem and in Kfar Kassem as well, there was a war in Israel, but we were together like a month and a half in Kfar Kassem, Arabs and Jews working together in like creative, peaceful bubble.
And it was amazing. It was the hospitality, it was amazing. And the people, you know, the missiles don’t know, from Gaza don’t know if you’re an Arab Israeli or Jewish Israeli. So for everyone, it was the same stress. And it was stressful, you know, because every day you hear something else in news. And there was Arab actors and Israeli and Jewish actors. All of us were, we are Israelis, but sometimes it was stress. But it was an opening of dialogue that gave us the opportunity to understand the other side and for them to understand us. So I think it was an amazing experience.
- Okay, thank you. We can go on to the next clip, please. The next slide please Jess, thank you. It is just one of the images from it where they’re playing and they’re acting as undercover counter-terrorism unit, as you can see. And we can show this and in the next slide, please. So the actors, again, filming in the areas. You know, it strikes me when we watch this and we hear Lior Raz speaking, not only is it an attempt to say well, let’s see what happens, we’ll try and just talk to each other, which may be a naive, idealistic hope. It may be a pipe dream of nonsense, or it may not be, or both, maybe, but it strikes me, you know, it, what has become post-October 7th it, I suppose it doesn’t really matter if you’re Jewish and you’re from the old days going back a long time, persecuted victim, the Jew is persecuted victim or the Jew as a soldier. You know, either way the Jew is going to be blamed for whatever, you know, as Trudy often likes to say, whether you’re a communist or you’re a capitalist, you know, the Jew is still going to be seen as a Jew, first a Jew, and then everything else. And it’s interesting for me to contrast. Last week we were talking about the film “Golda” with Helen Mirren and Liev Schreiber plays Kissinger. Kissinger says, there’s a great line, great line, the borscht scene where he’s having borscht in Golda Meir’s house and Kissinger character played by Liev Schreiber. And he says, “Well, you know, Golda, I have to tell you, I am a Secretary of State first, an American second and a Jew third.” Well, I think the reality, if people weren’t aware of it since October 7th, if they weren’t aware, they are certainly not a Jew third, they are a Jew first. And I think if anything, you know, to see portrayals of Jewish characters today in this way of showing, in this case of “Fauda”, both sides of the coin, as Lior Raz is saying. When you show the families of both, children, parents, mothers, fathers, you personalise, you humanise.
And as I said before, you get away from demonise. And that’s a crucial difference between, you know, stereotype and non-stereotype fiction, in this case, in TV, film. So I think that’s what they’re aiming at. And the portrayal of the Jewish characters, everybody is flawed, both sides of the story. You know, the one Israeli commander guy, you know, one of his close friends is having an affair with his wife. We see Gabi, the character, briefly shown in one clip. Now he’s Doron, he’s the main commando captain. He’s the captain of the counter-terrorism unit from his office. And he’s in liaison all the time with the Palestinian Security Chief in the West Bank. So we see the connection, which is ironically very strong and affectionate and close between the Palestinian, the PLA Chief of Security and the chief of this commander unit in Israel. We see them meeting and talking all the time and planning and sharing information, sharing knowledge all the time. And at the same time, husbands and wives are having affairs, children, others, teenagers are going through teenager problems, children’s weddings, other things. You know, that’s what gives the gritty realism, that it’s not just a shooting and crying documentary as, you know, many films or TV series are accused of, you know, it’s full of shooting and crying, you know, classic stereotype, cowboy and Indian stuff. It’s much more complex and gritty than that. And that’s what makes it for me really fascinating as well. Okay, if we could show, the next clip is from, this is when the main, guy Lior Raz, and in the one series, what’s fascinating is that he is undercover and showing himself to be an Arab or Palestinian boxer, and he wants to become a boxer and he wants to become a martyr for Hamas. And so he’s going to infiltrate Hamas by becoming a boxer. And we see this briefly played out in this little clip I want to show, which is from Israel TV. If we can show it, please.
[Person Off-Camera]
Shooting an action series, action drama series in Israel can be fun. Can be really fun. And I know it’s complicated because it talks about the conflict, but it was a great adventure.
[Narrator] Ala Dakka stars in the third season of “Fauda” as Bashar Hamdan, a young Palestinian boxer with big aspirations. The 25-year-old actor grew up in the southern Israeli city of Be'er Sheva, a convergence of Jewish and Arab worlds.
I love both people, I can’t hate either of the sides. I grew up with them, I grew up with them both. They’re both in me, they’re both a part of me. I would never, I can never say that one of them is not a part of my personality, is not a part of how I speak, is not a part of who I am as a person.
[Narrator] Through the course of the season, his character evolves from a fighting protegé to a confused son, thrust into an anti-terror plot which puts him between his family and his mentor. Unable to escape the war zone, Bashar is ultimately stripped of his innocence and driven by his revenge. For Ala, bringing himself into the character, channelling his pain was the most challenging part.
I mean, it forced me to look for the places where I got hurt as a kid. The places where I got kicked out as a kid, the places where I got, where my difference got me out of the group, or got me away from everybody. So when I did Bashar, I needed to go back into my memories to this, to these moments.
[Narrator] “Fauda” has been praised for showing a multi-layered view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It’s making waves from Hollywood to Dubai, hitting Netflix top 10 around the Arab world in Jordan, the UAE, Lebanon and beyond.
I was surprised, yeah, because I never thought that the Arab world or was, I mean, I knew that they’re watching it. I never know, I never knew how much they’re watching it. I got many messages from very many Arab countries. I think everybody wants to know what’s going on in here. And think “Fauda” gives, puts the camera inside the borders. I’ve got a lot of messages from all around the Arab world. I’ve got invitations to many different countries. So I think that combination that’s starting to happen, “Fauda” melting this, melting these borders with the Arab countries. I don’t see it as a bad thing. I don’t see it a bad thing. I see it as a good thing because melting the borders is what we need as people, as human race. So “Fauda” is doing a good thing that people in Jordan wants to know Hebrew and the people in wants to know Arabic. I think we’re doing good, I think.
Okay, so I want to show the next clip as well please, Jess, and we can discuss in a moment is this naive? Is it idealistic post-October 7th? Is it a deferred dream? Is it a possible dream? Hope, you know, I think it post-October 7th, it throws up all these questions and all these debates, which will never, which don’t actually go away. Okay, this is an interesting interview from American Dan Senor, if we can show it please, Jess.
Good morning. In 2015, a groundbreaking television programme took Israel by storm. “Fauda” tells the story of Israel’s. “Fauda” tells the story of Israel’s elite Mista'arvim unit, a group of undercover commandos who infiltrate the Palestinian Territories to stop terrorist attacks. The show has garnered awards not only for its rollercoaster plot and tremendous performances, but also for its in-depth, gritty exploration of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in a very nuanced way, and especially for its unflinching portrayal of a Hamas terror cell and the people caught in its orbit. While “Fauda” focuses on conflict within Israeli society, behind the scenes, another story unfolded. The show, which films in an Arab city, Kfar Kassem, near the border with the West Bank, has been a driver for economic opportunity and coexistence for Jewish and Arab Israelis. Before we welcome our panellists to discuss this international sensation, which made its debut here on Netflix this past December, ladies and gentlemen, this is “Fauda”.
[Person Off-Camera]
Please welcome the co-creators of “Fauda”, Avi Issacharoff and Lior Raz.
Hi, thank you.
So we have a limited amount of time. I want to jump into this, we got a lot to cover. First, what is “Fauda”? What is a fauda?
Fauda means chaos in Arabic. That’s the word that they describe chaos. And it describes a kind of a situation in which Palestinians lived for years between the years of 2000, 2007, during the years of the Second Intifada, that was daily life for Palestinians.
But also in the undercover units, we use this word fauda when we got discovered, we got burned. They understand that we are Israelis and Jewish.
So when you’re undercover, if the, your adversaries figure out that you guys are Israelis.
So in the radio we had to say we have fauda, and the rescuer was supposed to come. Sometimes they came, sometimes they’re not. But this was the intent.
Yeah, okay. So now let’s talk about your own experiences. Tell us a little bit about your own backgrounds that informed the creation of this show.
Okay, so I used to be in the Duvdevan. It’s an undercover unit in Israel. Thank you. Thank you very much. And I lived this life for a while. I actually served in the reserve for 20 years in Duvdevan as well. And actually when I met Avi, we know each other from Jerusalem. We were very young and we, a lot of hair.
Yeah.
So.
[Dan] Good old days.
Good old days, yeah. So we talked about it and we talked about this experience that we wanted to bring to the Israeli stage.
And I was a Hamas terrorist. Yeah, sorry. I was, I am a journalist for the last 17 years, “Times of Israel” right now. And I’m covering the Middle East and the Palestinian side. And meeting with Hamas, meeting with Hamas officials, militants, Fatah et cetera, et cetera, in order to understand, in order to talk to them and to bring to the Israeli audience and readers what does the other side think of planning of et cetera.
Right, for just the audience to know, if you follow “The Times of Israel”, you follow Avi on Twitter, there is, there are few journalists in the world that are as close to what is happening in the Palestinian Territories, the intrapolitics, the intra-terror organisation politics, and Avi, so you are very close to this. Now, let’s talk for a moment about Kfar Kassem, the town where you film “Fauda”. So it is an Israeli Arab town. There you were as Israeli filmmakers with a mix of Israeli actors and Arab actors, and the crew was a mix of Israeli and Arabs, Israelis and Arabs. How did that work? What was going on behind the scenes?
Actually, in the beginning, Protective Edge was started while we were shooting.
[Dan] So the Gaza War 2014.
Exactly.
[Dan] Okay, summer of 2014.
Yeah, and we cancelled the first day of shooting in Kfar Kassem because we were afraid. We didn’t know how the Arab population will accept us. At night, the mayor of Kfar Kassem is an Arab.
[Dan] So an Israeli Arab mayor.
Yeah, called us and said, “Listen, we talked about coexistence during peace, let’s do coexistence during war because the missiles don’t understand if you are Jewish or Arab.” And actually think, and that night, 150 people came to work there for a month and a half.
Mix of Jews and Arab.
Jews and Arabs living for a month and a half during the war in Kfar Kassem all together, working in a creativity bubble of peace. And we had an argument, we had, you know, just like me and my wife, we love each other, but we have some argument. So, but it was amazing. And now I have amazing, good friends from Kfar Kassem and actors, Arab actors as well.
Avi, when you speak to Palestinian sources within the Territories, what is their reaction to the show?
Actually, they love it. You know, usually they do not say it in public. They’re not interviewed about that. But when they talk to them for why, so yes, they like it. You know what, even Hamas officials like it. That was just last week in. Yeah, just last week I was in Hamas in Israelii jail meeting with Hamas officials. It became a huge hit in the Israeli prison. I mean, they watch it. And Hamas even wrote about it, even wrote in their official website that it’s a bad show, it’s a Zionist show, don’t watch the show, yada, yada, yada. And at the end, they put a link to the first episode of “Fauda”.
But this is.
We can hold it there please.
What does.
Okay, thanks Jess. Okay, I want to show the next clip, which is an interview because this is obviously in America. This is an interview from Israeli TV on “Fauda”, if we can show the clip, please.
Welcome back to the news today. This is “One-on-One”. Mista'arvim is the name given to IDF counter-terror units in which officers are specially trained to disguise themselves as Arabs in order to infiltrate locations in the West Bank. The soldiers in these units are operating in highly complicated and dangerous operations. A new Israeli drama series takes us inside exactly this. “Fauda” has become one of the most talked about new series on Israeli TV. Joining me tonight are its creators. One of them, you know very good, Avi Issacharoff, good evening.
Good evening.
[Interviewer] And also his friend, maybe his best friend, Lior Raz.
Good evening.
So just start explaining to me, I know what happened behind the scenes because I know you both, so I have to say this, to tell this to the viewers, but how it was created, from where you came with this idea?
I think 20 years ago I had a dream and Avi also had the same dream.
But I’m a little bit younger, so.
18 years ago, he had a dream and we met in Ramallah I think. I did something, he did something else. And we met, I asked him, “Avi, what is your dream?” And he said, “Let’s, I want to write a series about the Mista'arvim, undercover units.” And I said, “You know, it’s my dream also, so let’s do it together.” And we started to write it three, four years ago.
Yeah.
And now it’s on air.
You know, the process in writing a series in Israel is totally different than the United States. You have tonnes of writers, tonnes of creators. And here it was only you two, sitting for almost four years and writing a series about what? About your own lives or about the lives of your friends or about imaginary lives and the complexity of the reality that we’re living in?
First of all, we have to give the credit for other people because we weren’t alone. We are the co-creators, that’s it. It is, right. But we have a chief script writer, which is Moshe Zonder, that really went with us almost from the beginning. And we had a team of writers that went also with us and the director, of course, Assaf Bernstein. So it was a kind of a group of people. We both thought about the idea, about the way that it will go ahead and proceed, I mean, as a TV drama. But I think that was a kind of a team effort.
We brought the stories, you know, from, I was in Special Forces when I was younger than now. And I dealt with this kind of situation when I was young, when I was in the army. And Avi live on the West Bank, you know, he’s, you know him and he brought his life also to the stories that we brought and together I think it became that what made it so good, because I, we brought it all together, all kind of things, you know?
Yeah, the combination. I mean, it’s very difficult to describe as a kind of a combination of the Israeli narrative and the Palestinian narrative, because we are both Israelis and Jews. But at the end, we tried at least to bring the Palestinian narrative, even Hamas’ narrative into this very.
And I want to speak with you exactly about that, about how the Israeli viewers viewed this narrative because you were both of you really scared, maybe from the Israeli and Palestinian reactions. First, let’s see some kind of a clip, and then we will talk about it.
.
Where’s Abu Ahmed?
I think that today I will tell our viewers that maybe you got one of the best critiques ever, that it’s not only the best Israeli series in now, it’s maybe one of the best Israeli series ever.
But one of the, but they’re saying that, yes, this is the best Israeli TV drama.
And this comes after you two were really scared from the Israeli reactions.
Mm.
Because it comes in a really difficult time. It came out right, six months maybe after Operation Protective Edge, where you were afraid that the Israeli side won’t understand you bringing Palestinians, terrorists with faces, with stories, with families. And this is something that was surprising as well to see that people.
Almost shocking. Almost shocking, you know, we were hugged from both sides, meaning from the right, from the left, from Palestinians, from Israelis, from Jews, from Muslims, from Christians. Everyone were hugging us and saying that’s a great TV drama. And they didn’t get into those places of, this is a kind of a racist show. This is a kind of a left-winged show. They are traitors and not, no, they just loved seeing it, loved watching it.
Because we’re talking about the price of the warriors, both sides, you know? It doesn’t matter if you’re Palestinian or Israeli, you pay the price, your family paying the price, your wife, your daughters, your everyone that deal with it paying the price. And we talking about the price of the war. So everyone can relate to this thing. You know, Israeli was, everyone that were, was a soldier can relate to the thing. And also Palestinians, you know, we are paying the price of war. So that is the story of “Fauda”.
But you know, today in Israel, we are feeling a lot of lack of tolerance towards one another, towards Arabs, towards Mizrahi Jews, towards Middle Eastern Jews, toward the Ashkenazi Jews. You feel the lack of tolerance in the Israeli society. And yet in this series, you can identify with each and every one of the characters. If it’s the woman, if it’s the men, if it’s the Arab, if it’s the terrorist himself. I think the last chapter that I saw was chapter seven, episode seven. And in episode seven it was maybe compared to “Game of Thrones” to the Red Wedding. And, you know, it’s for me, I’m trying to understand if you had the same process as an actor, for example, during the filming, during the, ‘cause you filmed during Operation Protective Edge.
[Lior] Yeah.
Okay, I wanted to show this because for me it’s the most intelligent interview of all. And she’s so aware because obviously she’s living in Israel, she’s so aware of the context of war, you know, of dying, of killing, of on, you know, on happening in the country and how risky and how dangerous it is to make a series like this. And these guys not having a clue really, is it going to work? Isn’t it going to work? But having a passion and a desire coming from their real, lived experience you know, from a military and other points of view, human point of view, to really tell the story. And I think there’s something so moving and so powerful in the attempt to try and show what they show in the story as well. You know, when we show the desire for revenge, when we show the discipline breakdown in revenge, family relationships, people lured into violence, people seduced or attracted by violence. When we show compromise, manipulation, unhinged and hinged characters, we create a complexity of character. And I think what ultimately drives us is not just a political, you know, trying to talk to each other, both sides, but is showing the complexity of characters within the story of the counter-terrorism unit. And when we show that it’s going to be provocative, it’s going to either be a disaster, and be slated and attacked, it’s going to be seen as naive, as idealistic and should be just cut, or it’s going to really, you know, create an incredible response and trigger an accord in many humans watching. It’s got extraordinary viewership in countries like Lebanon, the UAE, other, many other Arab countries, Jordan, elsewhere through Netflix in Israel itself, and then through Netflix, you know, spread around the world as well. So it’s really taken on a life of its own and more than a cult phenomenon, as often can be fashionable with TV, it has taken on a life.
And I think it’s because it’s trying to show the complexity of what’s already a highly complex, you know, tragic situation. And yet not being scared to, not being scared to try and look at it and tell “as authentic a story as possible”. One other fascinating thing is how this has been adapted to in India and has not only, as I mentioned right at the beginning, it’s been adapted, you know, from “Prisoners of War” to “Homeland” and the series we all know in America with Claire Danes and, you know, the soldier who gets turned by Al-Qaeda in “Homeland”. But it’s what Lior Raz says. It’s about showing the price of war, the price of war on the soldiers, on the families, on children, on wives and husbands and you know, everybody, on parents. Does the concept of what’s right and wrong get erased? Does the concept of the moral perspective, does that get lost? Is that incorporated in the show? It’s all part of the debate. You know, the point of view. Is it too much on the one side, too little on the other side? Do we identify, as she’s saying in the interview, we identify too much with the one and too little with the other? You know, is that risky? You know, because there are demons on the one level, but if we show there’s something of human, does it lessen it for us? What does it do? It creates a fascinating debate of the movement from historical fact into fiction based on that historical fact. This last clip I want to show is a very brief clip with one of the main actresses talking about how extraordinarily popular it became in India and how Indian TV has adapted it in terms of the relationship between India and Pakistan. If we can show the next clip, please.
I honestly, I feel grateful to have an ally, a beautiful ally like India. India is one of my favourite places on Earth. I love its people. I can really understand why the first thing that you guys did was to condemn the horrible action of October 7th in Israel. I would expect nothing less, but I want to say with the outmost gratefulness in my heart, I think it’s the best thing that you guys can do for us is condemn this horrible terror and stand by our side.
Thanks, so I wanted to show that as a last clip because not only, you know, has it come from the earlier one, which went into the early influence, which went to “Prisoners of War” and into influencing the massive TV hit “Homeland”, but how in India, this, you know, has taken on, “Fauda” has taken on an enormous resonance on the India-Pakistan conflict and the support as she’s saying. And you can feel such heartfelt emotional support inside the way she’s speaking, the actress, of how India has been, well, to a large degree, to a degree, supportive of Israel post-October 7th. I’m not going to get into the politics of Modi and Putin and, you know, all the rest of it at the moment. I think what this, these kind of things can do without trying to sound romantic or naive or idealistic for that matter either, 'cause not at all. And I don’t think anybody is. Obviously it’s a TV show, it’s ultimately for entertainment, it’s a TV show. This is not going to change the world. It’s not going to revolutionise anybody or this or that or anything. It’s not going to be. But what it can do is speak to hearts and minds.
What it can try and do, which what great art can try is awaken a small, to quote Leonard Cohen, a crack where the light might get in, just awaken a little moment, perhaps a little flash, a tiny light, you know, or what Albert Camus called the invincible summer of the heart. It might simply be able to engage us. And if I may make one final quote for today from Oscar Wilde with the lost and graceful art of graceful debate. And I would request, we see this film, this TV series in that context, you know, of the educational value of trying to understand what they were trying to do, what they are trying to do now, post-October 7th, and what any of us would be faced with if we were trying a similar TV or film series or whatever. And open to criticism from all sides. The real thing that they have is the courage not to ignore, the courage to take it on, the courage to try, the courage to attempt, no matter how difficult the journey may be. And I really applaud these guys, I think, you know, have tried something extraordinary and hopefully can inspire others, you know, in many other parts of the world. Okay, so I’m going to hold it there about “Fauda” and go into the questions.
Q&A and Comments:
Hi, hi Esther. Oh, okay, great, thank you.
And Rochelle, predict it will become, I dunno if it’s one of the most watched lectures, but it’s certainly one of, aside from “Lockdown” and the fantastic community Wendy’s created with “Lockdown”, this is, the TV series is one of the most watched TV series on Netflix, you know, globally, not just in the Muslim world or the Jewish world, but in many countries. I live in London, so I don’t have Netflix. I haven’t heard of “Fauda”. Oh, well that’s interesting. If you can maybe get it somehow through Netflix or something else, have a try. Rochelle, find a friend who has Netflix, yeah.
Oh, here’s the link, thank you Rita, for giving the link. Appreciate very much.
Okay, and Rochelle, yeah. Mandy Patinkin in “Homeland”, absolutely.
Stan, this was popular in Arab countries.
Q: How was it reviewed and discussed there?
A: Well, I think they saw it as the two co-creators were saying as a sense of gritty realism by showing, again, and I know I’m repeating myself, but showing the characters beyond the one categorization, which is counter-terrorist commando and terrorist. When you go beyond those labels and you show a bit of family, you show a bit of the social, the human context, you break the stereotype and you break the binary. And that’s how you can start to discuss it. You know, I think it’s, Coppola does a similar thing with “The Godfather”. He shows the mafia as a family. His primary obsession is not just the mafia with shoot and kill and this and that, you know, and the gruesomeness of the mafia. I’m not comparing the two by the way at all historically. I’m just saying as a film aesthetic only, you show family story of the Corleone family. You have to see the type, the stereotype of the binary in a different way. That’s all. Okay, only in Israel, not anything more, okay. That’s yeah, great point, Stan and others.
“The Godfather” also humanises the mafia. Yeah, so it is about this debate between demonising and humanising, ultimately that’s what the debate comes down to. And that is partly the binary. And that goes way back to Shakespeare, to so many, you know, great writers, great authors going all the way back who grapple. And philosophically we grapple with that dilemma because sometimes it’s right, we must demonise because they are a demon or we humanise or we have elements of both. And that’s part of what creates “Fauda” such a fascinating series because it’s grappling with that humanise and demonise artistic debate. So said that Hamas, the tunnel systems exactly, led to the apocalypse, yeah. And it’s almost, you know, what the script writers came up with. I mean, can we believe it? That they came up with this basic idea which was dismissed as being, you know, ridiculous.
Denise, I love the show, okay. And to show the aspects of it. Yeah, thank you.
Gita, and also in the film Golda Meir, the Helen Mirren, yeah. She responds, “In Hebrew we write from right to left.” Exactly.
Denise again and Samuel. Yeah. And Hebrew write from right to left, yeah.
Q: Brenda, given our own backgrounds personally and militarily did October 7th take you by surprise?
A: Wow, you’re asking me a very personal question here, Brenda. To be completely honest, I, yes, of course it took me and I guess everybody by surprise and not by surprise that there was an attack because I think maybe 'cause my sisters lived there for 50 years in Jerusalem and I’ve got many family members, you know, in Israel all over. But the failure of the intelligence to see it, not that Hamas or another group would attack Israel. That’s not a surprise probably to anybody, I would imagine. But the way they did it, the failure of the intelligence obviously, you know, and I think that’s the shock maybe is a better word. And the tragic, you know, terrifying shock for everybody. And the horror, it was the glee with which they did it, you know? The glee with which they murdered and killed and raped. And the fact of them doing it obviously as well is so absolutely terrifying. And is it possible to humanise and not demonise? I don’t know. You know, I grapple with that I think as much as anybody else does from an artistic point of view, from a human point of view, it’s a tough, it’s very, very hard, you know? And, you know, again, credit to these guys, now they are rewriting and reworking the next series because they’re carrying on. But what are they going to do as I said before, post-October 7th? Having been in the South African Army, I’m not surprised by very much, to be frank, having seen what I saw there. And yeah, it doesn’t surprise what Hamas were capable of. And I guess, you know, other terrorist groups as well.
Mitsy, there’s one element of the Arab Israeli struggle people did not mention, Islam. It’s at the centre, you’re absolutely right. Islam and the West, it’s hugely important. And it’s discussed in nice-y nice ways, as you say, Mitsy. And I agree. You know, when you combine religion and nationalism, you know, with this here, with Islam, at the core of it it becomes terrifyingly powerful and terrifyingly scary, to be frank. Exactly what you’re saying, Mitsy. And I think they show that in “Fauda” because they’d never shy away from showing the connection between Islam and terrorism. They don’t, you know, you see many scenes and in fact it’s crucial to the very foundation of Hamas and similar groups, without a doubt. I mean, the very names, you know, Islamic Jihad and, you know, the references are all to aspects of Islam.
Barbara, the unit was very angry about the series. They were invited to the premier, didn’t go. Okay, so of course, Hamas liked it. Well, that’s interesting to know. And I didn’t know that, that the unit Duvdevan was angry about the series. 'Cause I do know that they are using the series to teach new soldiers some Arabic and Arabic slang and very contemporary Arabic that would be used in the territories, in the areas. So I’m not sure what you’re saying here, because from our latest research, the Israeli army is using clips from the series for that reason. Because the language not only has to be accurate, but it has to be with the right slang, you know, and the right ways of using the words in these areas.
Gita, yeah, no, I certainly, I spent a hell of a lot of time trying to find interesting background material, not to show end endless clips from the actual series, but to rather try and dig deeper into the meaning of the series in these interview clips. Absolutely, and of course knowing that, you know, I’m walking a fine line between emotion and educational approach and my own emotional response compared to my educational response.
Ron, thank you and hope you well. The current view of “Fauda” after October 7th. Well, that’s what I’ve been trying to research. And I know from the co-creators that they’re certainly, they’ve gone through many, many rewrites for the next series post-October 7th. And as they say, they’re going to be much tougher and not, and it, to quote them, it’s much, the quote is from Lior Raz, is it much harder to show the personal sides of these terrorists’ lives. You know, and that’s absolutely, you know, the tough part from a writer’s point of view, without a doubt. I don’t know facts or figures overall of viewership, as you say, in Muslim world, Arab worlds or Israel. I don’t know the latest because the series would be before October 7th. The latest one hasn’t been done yet. So there aren’t facts and figures to show the readership or the response or research really, which was the tough part.
Hannah, thank you, well, yeah, and thank you for your kind words there.
Claire, thanks. It’s a very difficult subject and I thought long and hard whether I should even touch it, but I think it’s part of the magic of what Wendy has created through the community and the educational world of “Lockdown”.
Liliana, thank you, appreciate, or many of you, very kind comments here, thank you. Nancy, her for brotherhood, yeah. “Imagine”, John Lennon. Let’s go back.
Maya, I think that today it would hold another series in a permanent war. I agree, it’s permanent war, 120 hostages, nine months going on, you know, the threat from the north, Hezbollah, the Iranians sending over 300 at least missiles and drones. Terrifying. You know, I speak to my sister every day virtually in Jerusalem and her children and grandchildren and many, many others. I’m sure everybody, many people here do as well. And it’s absolutely horrific, you know? And the response from the world, the global world and the, you know, the, I suppose it’s almost like a screaming antisemitism that has been unleashed. You know, I don’t want to get into all those debates now as to why, but terrifyingly but real. And we have to face it. We cannot ever shy away from it. We must, you know, see it straight on.
Q: Diane, can this be applied to the Nazis?
A: We love their children killing Jewish children, yeah, that is exactly one of the most important discussions and debates, Diane, you know? We see the Nazis who love their children and their grandchildren and their parents and whatever, all the rest of it, you know, coming after, you know, eight hours of killing Jewish children and Jewish people at the same time. I think it’s an absolutely crucial question. And there’s a brilliant book by Christopher Browning called “Ordinary Men”, and it’s about the ordinariness. This is not in the camps. These are the Einsatzgruppen who nevertheless, you know, shot at least one and a half million and followed the German army in particular into the west, into the east, sorry. And were slaughtering and shooting and killing. And his book looks at the ordinariness, what he calls the ordinariness of these guys. They were post office men, they were worked in this, they worked in that, and, you know, whatever their lives were before. But the ordinary guys who were doing the horrific, the Nazi killing of Jewish people, you know, as they conquered the Eastern territories. So it’s really interesting because he looks at this exact debate between demonise and humanise. And the question is eternal. Is it human nature? Is it society and society teaching people this is how you think in this one dimensional way? And you always have to have a superior and an inferior in the eternal binary between, you know, peoples, nations, religions, whatever? You know, it’s an endless question which writers, artists, philosophers I think have tried to grapple with, you know, for millennia.
Rita, never again, absolutely never again. But the tragedy is it did happen on October 7th. I mean, nothing vaguely like the Holocaust, obviously, nothing on the extent of the Holocaust, but the principle, you know, is so similar. So never again has to be, you know, and tragically we have to be reminded, we have to be, you know, to never let the guard down, never let the vigilance down. We’re human, we’ll make mistakes, but never again has to be the motto, without a doubt, and never, ever forgotten.
Sue, I found Lior Raz so humanised, he kept appearing in my dreams of “Fauda”. Ah Sue, that’s an extraordinary thing to share with everybody here on “Lockdown” and the community created. He is so humanised in the series and he kept appearing in your dreams. Yeah, because he’s such a good actor also, you know, we can’t forget this is an acted series. This is not, you know, sort of, you know, this is being filmed. Because he’s such a good actor, he’s able to make us feel for him so much, identify as she says in that last interview, the Israeli journalist.
Monty, there is now a very powerful national religious movement in Israel, especially in the IDF. Yes, absolutely. I mean the national religious movement, I agree in the IDF and in other areas and the influence there, which would make for a fascinating and important debate. But that’s for another time, okay?
Barbara maybe “Fauda” contributed to putting the intelligence community to sleep. Well, I don’t think so. I don’t think a TV series can be accused of putting the intelligence unit of the IDF to sleep. I hear what you’re saying, Barbara, but I don’t think they can take responsibility for the intelligence failure that obviously happened on October 7th. I don’t think it can be one TV series. There’s a whole lot of factors going on there, and I’m sure many people know, you know, all the different aspects of what happened with that disastrous intelligence failure that we know. But thanks for that, Barbara.
Meghan, you may be aware one of the main actors was hurt. Yeah, one of the main actors was hurt terribly in Gaza recently, absolutely. And one of the crew of the series was a soldier in Gaza and was killed about two and a half months ago. So one of the crew was murdered, I’m going to use that word, not killed. He was murdered in a Hamas booby trap. And that’s the reality, you know? He was one of the crew, not the actors, one of the crew and one of the main actors was wounded pretty horrifically, absolutely, very moving interviews. Thanks for sharing that, Meghan.
David, hi and David, thank you again. I can’t thank you enough for sharing your story about being in Vietnam in a hospital and Moshe Dayan coming, but just extraordinary sense of, I know I’m repeating, but it’s extraordinary sense of the community created by Wendy through “Lockdown”.
Q: David, are they still doing “Fauda”?
A: Well, they’re reworking, reworking, reworking the next series, the writing of it post-October 7th.
Romane, I think psychoanalysts and religious would say it is human nature. Yeah, I mean, you know, it’s human nature. All these paradoxes, contradictions, complications, the dark side, the light side, you know, all of these things are part of, you know, human nature, but they, aspects of them I think can be pushed more or less by society in order to try and lessen suffering. Morality for me has always meant one thing. How do you lessen suffering? Tessa, can you please repeat the name of the book about the Germans? “Ordinary People”, Christopher Browning. And if you want to email me with pleasure, and I’ll give you the link to the book. It’s a superb book and superbly researched about these police units, Einsatzgruppen came from the police, ordinary people who drafted into the police by the Nazis and sent out to do the shooting, the Einsatzgruppen part of the Holocaust.
Rita, thank you. And thank you many, many others. So thank you so much everybody for watching. And I know it’s a really difficult topic. As I said right at the beginning, it’s hard for me to talk about because emotionally I feel very strongly one way, but I have to put my educational hat on and try and look at it, as do the creators. So from all these points of view, I just want to profoundly say thank you to everyone for watching, for coming on board with this. And I guess, you know, the co-creators would probably feel you know, similarly in a way. So thank you very much, Jess. Appreciate and thanks to everybody and hope you have a really, really good rest of the weekend. And all thoughts to family, friends, everybody we know going in Israel at the moment, take care.